In her landmark book, Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents, Dr. Lindsay Gibson explains the emotional toll that children experience when they are raised by emotionally immature parents.

Link to the podcast

The damage caused by emotionally immature parents

Growing up with self-involved or emotionally immature parents can make childhood feel like an emotional desert. You may be well taken care of, have a stable home life, and get all your material needs met, but still feel that something was missing in your childhood. If your parents are emotionally unable to really connect with you, respond to your emotional needs, and show interest in who you are, you may grow up feeling emotionally empty. And that emotional loneliness can have an impact on your sense of self, sense of happiness, and on your ability to connect to others.

For many people, that emotional loneliness will carry over into their adult relationships. Many children of emotionally immature parents find themselves as adults in emotionally lonely marriages. That’s because we gravitate toward what’s familiar when we choose a partner. Even when those types of partners and relationships recreate the pain of our childhood.

There are three common, and tragic, characteristics of emotionally lonely relationships.

1. Earning love.

   It is very common for these individuals, either as a child or an adult, to feel that they have to constantly earn love. And they do this by constantly being of service in the relationship, and pushing down their own needs and desires.

2. Waiting for love.

   As a child growing up, every once in a while, their parent would really notice them and connect with them emotionally. And this occasional connection taught them how to wait for love. And, many then carried this over into their adult relationships. They are very good at denying their own sense of loneliness and patiently wait for their partner to finally see them and connect.

3. Searching for love.

   As an adult, they enter into relationships looking to cure the loneliness they feel inside. When a relationship doesn’t relieve their loneliness they then move on to the next person hoping this relationship will ease their pain. It can take years before they realize that the loneliness is inside them, and can only be relieved by doing their own work.

Recovering from emotionally immature parents

It’s not enough just to understand that the impact your parent’s emotional immaturity had on your life. You also need to learn how to heal, how to recover from emotionally immature parents. In her second book, Recovering from Emotionally Immature Parents: Practical Tools to Establish Boundaries and Reclaim Your Emotional Autonomy, Dr. GIbson sets out a series of tools to help you understand, process, and recover from your emotional loneliness.

Podcast with Dr. Gibson

Below you’ll find a link to my Podcast in which I interview Dr. Lindsay Gibson on her landmark book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. In the interview, Dr. Lindsay Gibson explains how confusing it is for the child when their parent is so self-involved, that they can't really see, or respond to, the child's emotional needs. Dr. Gibson also talks about how you can recover from that experience to create happier and healthier relationships.

I think you’ll really enjoy the podcast. I hope you’ll take a few minutes to give it a try.

Link to the podcast

About Me

I’m a Couples Therapist in San Francisco. I focus on helping couples feel closer, more connected, and more loving. To learn more about my practice, please visit my website.

I hope you enjoyed this article. Please leave me a comment. Here are a few articles you might find useful on this topic.

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Transcript of the interview

peaker 1 (00:07):

Hi, my name is Jacob Brown and I'm a couple's therapist in San Francisco. I wanna welcome you to sex love and couple's therapy. We all want to feel loved. That's a universal desire, but sometimes instead of feeling loving our relationships, feel confusing, frustrating, and a little crazy making the purpose of this podcast is to help you clear up some of that confusion so that you and your partner can find ways to make your relationship feel closer, more connected, and more loving. So stay tuned. We've got a lot of great stuff to talk about, and now let's go talk about my three favorite topics, sex love, and couples therapy.

Speaker 1 (00:57):

Well, I'd like to welcome today's guest Dr. Lindsay Gibson. I am incredibly excited to, to be talking today with Dr. Gibson, who is the author of the very popular and, and I think really very important book, adult children of emotionally immature parents, how to heal from distant rejecting or self-involved parents. Dr. Gibson is a clinical psychologist in private practice, and she specializes in individual psychotherapy with adult children of emotionally mature parents. She's along with that book, she's also the author of recovering from emotionally immature parents and self care for adult children of emotionally immature parents and her recent book who you were meant to be a guide defining or recovering your life's purpose. Dr. Gibson lives in practices in Virginia Beach, Virginia, Dr. Gibson. Welcome, and thanks so much for coming and talking with us today.

Speaker 2 (01:52):

Oh, it's a, it's a great honor to be here. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:56):

I wanted to just take a second to make sure that, uh, kind of, we all have a understanding of what we're talking about today, and I wonder if you wouldn't mind just taking a, a moment or two to kind of set the frame for what you mean by an emotionally immature parent. What does that kind of, when you say that phrase, what comes up in your mind as a picture of that person?

Speaker 2 (02:19):

I, I, I just wanna say before I get into that, that I've made this my life's work mm-hmm <affirmative> because I think it is so crucial to, uh, mental health and it all over the world, because the impact of emotional immaturity in a parent on the child is far reaching. Um, it is very subtle and often unseen, but it has a huge impact on that person's emotional life, their sense of self-esteem and their ability to have rewarding relationships. So what do we mean when we say emotionally immature? Well, emotional immaturity is, um, when something goes wrong in that very specific line of development, psychologically, that has to do with managing your emotions and integrating, uh, your emotions into your personality in such a way that your emotions serve you instead, overwhelming you. So something goes wrong, whether it's, um, uh, you know, a congenital or neurological problem, or whether it's an environmental problem, such as abuse, emotionally, immature, people just don't grow up emotionally.

Speaker 2 (03:45):

Now they may grow up intellectually. Uh, they may be very smart. They may be brilliant. They may be, um, uh, you know, very effective leader. They may be the head of a big business. I mean, it doesn't impair their functioning, but when it comes to intimate relationships of which, you know, parent child relationships are, are like a huge example of that. They have a lot of trouble allowing other people to be themselves and to set their own limits and their own boundaries. Instead, the emotionally immature person, like the three year old, um, wants you to be all theirs, uh, to mirror them, to be just like them and makes them feel secure, uh, to regulate their emotional stability for them. And to make sure that you bolster their self-esteem. I, I call that the emotional immature relationship system, meaning that I expect you, if I'm emotionally immature to regulate me, my self-esteem my emotional stability.

Speaker 2 (04:54):

And if you don't, that means that you don't love me. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and it means that I have to pull away from you, or I have to punish you, or, you know, something has to go wrong, but that's just a sketch of, uh, what happens in people who are emotionally immature and you can apply all of that to the way that a parent would treat a child, right? Like there would be, uh, impaired empathy. Um, there would be, uh, quickness to anger or punish. There would be that expectation that the child hide themselves mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and instead mirror what the parent wants to see. So yeah. Self development becomes very tricky with parents like that.

Speaker 1 (05:41):

Yeah, no, you can imagine that. I think that's a, a great description. It, the way I look at it from that description, it changes the role of the child. So in an, if I have a more mature parent, then the parent feels themselves separate, both separate from the child, but also the parent is in a sense in service of the child yes. And caring for them both physically and emotionally, but in the parent that you just described, the child is in service of the parent.

Speaker 2 (06:09):

Exactly. Right. Yes.

Speaker 1 (06:11):

And you can imagine how difficult that is for the child to grow up in a world in which they are clearly responsible for the care of their parents' kind of emotional regulation and emotional needs. Yeah. Yeah. And what a burden that places on the child.

Speaker 2 (06:30):

Yeah. And, you know, the tragic thing about it is that the child is not aware that they're carrying a burden because they have always been in that predicament. So it feels normal.

Speaker 1 (06:44):

Yeah. And I was wondering, cuz I, I completely agree with you about how important this work is. Um, and the IM the tremendous impact this has on so many individuals as they grow up, you know, I can imagine, uh, parent's emotional maturity or immaturity might exist on a scale from, you know, um, subtle or mild to profound. And I wonder how big a problem are we dealing with? I mean, what kind of, do you have a sense of what percentage of parents might fall into one of these categories of having emotional and maturity that might have a substantial impact on a child?

Speaker 2 (07:20):

I don't have a feel for how many, I can just tell you how popular the books been. <laugh> right.

Speaker 1 (07:30):

I was gonna bring that up. That the book has been incredibly popular

Speaker 2 (07:35):

<laugh> yeah. So, um, my sense of it is that with, um, when I look at my clientele, which is really the source of, of my, uh, research, my field research, right? Um, yeah. People who suffer from anxiety, um, and depression, but more so anxiety. Those are people that I find a high likelihood that they have had some kind of experiences with emotional, significant emotionally immature people in their past. So I, I don't know the numbers, but I would say that this is probably much more widespread than anybody would think. Um, if we just, you know, used that term emotionally immature appearance, I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't consider that they had those kinds of parents until they understood what, what, what they, uh, actually are like,

Speaker 1 (08:31):

Well, I think there's a lot of value from my point of view. And I wonder what your thought is, is this using the term emotionally immature parent, as opposed to a more, uh, technical diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder or be borderline personality disorder. And I wonder what your thoughts are about using your more umbrella term, as opposed to those more kind of technical Def uh, diagnoses.

Speaker 2 (08:57):

Yeah. Well, it's kind of like all those, um, diagnoses that you just mentioned to my way of thinking are indicators of emotional immaturity. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> like, I, I come from a very developmental perspective. Right. Um, that's how I was trained and that's what has been born out in, in my experience as well. The diagnostic categories that you just mentioned, um, do fall under what I consider that umbrella term of emotional immaturity. And I wanted to keep it broad and, uh, a little bit undefined that way mm-hmm, <affirmative> diagnostically because I didn't want people to feel like they had to betray their parent by giving them a, a right, you know, label pathological diagnosis, a label. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Um, and I also recognize that there are a bunch of different types of people that are what I would consider to be emotionally immature. Um, but they may not necessarily meet the DSM categories.

Speaker 2 (09:59):

Mm-hmm, <affirmative> their, uh, criteria. And they may actually appear to be very nice people, very kindly people they might even be seen as the favorite parent, um, in the family. But when you actually look at the degree of their empathy, their ability to, um, take other people's needs into account and their ability to engage in real emotional intimacy with other people that is relationships at a, at a deeper, more profound level, they really are immature. So there just are a lot of different ways that a, a person can formulate a personality and yet still have that under structuring of immaturity.

Speaker 1 (10:50):

Yeah. That's very interesting. And, and I think that idea of not ha asking them to portray a parent, I think it's very important because even as adults, even when, once we're aware of kind of our parents' limitations, there's a tremendous resistance to really kind of speaking badly or, or acknowledging some of those issues. And I thought one of the things, one of the quotes that I was really impressed with from, from the book is this question of how the child, how the adult child begins to come to terms with the kind of childhood he or she had and how difficult that can be. And especially if they were physically well cared for it's one thing, if you were physically abused or de deprived, and you can point to that, but if you are physically well cared for, it becomes more difficult to really see it.

Speaker 1 (11:49):

And the quote you had is being well cared for in non-emotional areas can create confusion in people who grow up feeling emotionally lonely. They have overwhelming physical evidence that their parents loved and sacrificed for them, but they feel a painful lack of emotional security and closeness with their parents. Yeah. And that's such a, I see so many of my clients who show that same question or issue when I kind of suggest some questions about their parents, they say, oh, no, no, no. I was really well taken care of, you know, I went to the best schools. I went to summer camp, we traveled and it's takes quite a while for them to feel comfortable enough to kind of have that connection with oh yeah. But there was this other part

Speaker 2 (12:40):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Speaker 1 (12:41):

That I never felt.

Speaker 2 (12:43):

Right.

Speaker 1 (12:44):

And I still don't feel

Speaker 2 (12:46):

That's right. That's right. Yeah. And that points also to, uh, that thing about how do we, uh, how do we learn to know what we're feeling? Yeah. Because we aren't born knowing what our feelings are. We're born with a bunch of sensations, um, bunch of, uh, body experiences, but it really depends on the parent noticing the child's, uh, emotional reactions and then putting words and names on those emotions. So, uh, the emotionally immature parent, not being very attuned, um, to other people's emotional experiences is not gonna look at their child and say, oh honey, you look like you're feeling emotionally lonely. Perhaps you're not getting enough connection. <laugh> that's not gonna happen.

Speaker 1 (13:38):

Not gonna happen.

Speaker 2 (13:39):

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yes, they, they have the physical sensations. They have that, that feeling, but they would not be conscious of it or in any way know what it was connected to. Right. But, you know, I think one of the most, um, poignant and in some ways, beautiful thing though, Jacob is that apparently we are wired for love. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> apparently we're wired for a deep, true connection with other people. To me, that is the most marvelous attribute <laugh> that we have. And when we don't get it, when we can't connect with somebody at a deep enough level, it does something to us. It's like, we're, we're missing a vital nutrient. And of course, you know, in, in your work, in, in your specialty area, um, I'm sure that you're dealing with people all the time who are essentially feeling like they're missing essential nutrients in their relationships. Right. But you might not have any idea what to call that.

Speaker 1 (14:50):

Right? No, that's so true. And I think it's one of the more heartbreaking moments of being a couple's therapist. When you see a couple of which one partner is unable to kind of take in the nutrients that their O that their partners trying desperately to give them.

Speaker 2 (15:10):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:11):

Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, they're so trying to love, they're so loving them, but it's kind of goes past them. It kind of goes through them without sticking. And that kind of reminds me of you, the quote, that also from your book that these people, these Cho adult children often settle for emotional loneliness in their relationships, because it feels normal to them like their early home life. And, and this just goes back to what you were just saying about the lack of attunement and the lack of reflection, accurate reflection of what they're feeling. That they've never felt that emotional fullness

Speaker 2 (15:51):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Speaker 1 (15:52):

And so they take that loneliness into their relationships and they are still not able to feel those nutrients. And that's just heartbreaking sometimes.

Speaker 2 (16:03):

Yeah, it really is because it's sort of like, how do you, um, how do you increase that receptive capacity in a person who doesn't recognize what they're being given and is, you know, sometimes, uh, confused or, um, threatened by it.

Speaker 1 (16:23):

That makes a lot of sense that, that they might be threatened by this, but I'm wondering as these children, oh, first one last quick question about the emotionally immature parent, and you talked about it, they might even be the favored parent. I wonder is your experience, I mean, not this isn't quantitative or statistical, but just your experience that this tends to be more the father or the mother. Do you have a gender feel about this?

Speaker 2 (16:49):

No, I really don't because every time I start to think, oh, it's more the dad or, oh, it's more the mom, I get another example of the opposite. Right. Um, and, and we're pretty familiar in, in therapy with family dynamics where we have a mother who, you know, may be quite loving toward the children, may be, you know, more gentle, have gentle person have a nicer temperament <laugh> that would be the, what I call the passive emotionally immature parent. But when it comes right down to it, they're not gonna protect that kid. Mm-hmm <affirmative> from the other, uh, emotionally immature parent who may be quite rejecting or even abusive. Right. Um, because their response, the passive types response is to sort of glide over things and teach the child to not make a big deal about, uh, hurts or things that happen. And so you can have that kind of, of mother we're familiar with, with mm-hmm <affirmative> that, but then you can also have the family situation where the mother is maybe more narcissistic, um, uh, entitled imperious, critical, uh, perfectionistic. And then you have a dad who sort of facilitates her running the show. He protects her, he makes excuses for her. He counsels the children to just go along. So mom doesn't get upset, you know, so we can see in both of those examples that this is a kind of a passive, emotional immaturity coming out in both gendered parents.

Speaker 1 (18:35):

Right. You know, it's interesting what you, those descriptions also really remind me of what we see in people who grew up in alcoholic households. And I'm wondering what, in your mind, if any kind of connection you make between, you know, um, growing up as a, a child of alcoholism versus a, a child of a immature emotionally immature parent.

Speaker 2 (19:02):

Yeah. Well, you can think of it as any kind of drug use, any kind of abuse of intoxicants helps you feel like you're coping. Correct. Um, it reduces stress, uh, it takes pressure off and it makes you feel okay. Basically. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, that's, that's, that's the power behind intoxicants, right? Yeah. So emotionally immature people, um, are often not up to the tasks and the pressures and the stresses of adult life at an emotional level. And so they, uh, they really need help in dealing with stress. And because like we've been saying they have trouble taking in support from other people because they're not used to it. And they don't know quite what to do with it. Then it makes sense that they would try to handle this on their own, right. Through some kind of substance or some kind of activity, uh, could be a lot of acting out that goes on as well. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, that helps to calm them, or it helps to center them or, um, sort of bring them into alignment again. So I think that there are a lot of similarities because addiction is a way of coping without using support from other people. Um, right. And without really looking at what the emotional issues are underneath,

Speaker 1 (20:29):

That makes a lot of sense. So I'm wondering as take, you know, these emotionally, these adult children, and we look at them in relationships cuz they, as they grow up and go into relationships, I wonder how do you see them dealing with the, both the joys and the challenges and the difficulties? What, what are they like as partners for, you know, example, how do they be, how do they approach relationships as they grow up?

Speaker 2 (20:57):

Yeah. Well, think about it in terms of what they have, um, had to practice and get good at in their relationship in their families, especially with their parents. Um, they have had to, uh, tolerate a one-sided relationship with the parent where the parent is, um, basically not aware of and therefore not very interested in what's going on inside that child. So the child learns that my subjective experience is not important. In fact, it causes problems. It annoys people, it's it's, uh, a burden or nuisance to people. So if I'm gonna have a close relationship, then I need to hide that. And like you said earlier, serve be of service to the person that, um, I'm getting into a relationship with. So they go into relationships expecting to do all the emotional work that is, uh, they're gonna, they're gonna be the one with empathy. They're gonna be the one who, um, has to tell their partner how to be a grownup, um, in, in their parenting or how to take responsibility or how to be more sensitive.

Speaker 2 (22:17):

They're always working emotionally, uh, to try to bring their partner up to speed and they expect relationships to be frustrating. Uh, they don't expect relationships to be enriching. I don't know how many people I've had, who will talk about, um, they'll say things like, well, I know relationships, uh, take a lot of work, right? I'm thinking, no they don't. Um, <laugh> uh, yes, you have to make effort to have a good relationship and you have to be aware and you have to try and all that. But these are people who are truly working at their relationships, um, and not getting very far. So that feels normal to a person who has had to take on the responsibility of, uh, caring for the emotional needs of their parent, for instance. And also, um, they have learned that you put other people first, uh, that self-sacrifice is the highest good in a relationship.

Speaker 2 (23:24):

Now, interestingly, there's a shadow side to this underneath that there is a lonely wounded neglected child, part of themselves, right? Who is hoping for a partner who will finally finally give them the love that they never got and who will be sensitively attuned to what they need without there ever having to ask for it. You know, that for these adult children would be, oh, that just the greatest good in terms of what you could expect from a relationship that I don't have to tell you what I need. You notice what I need and give it to me. Now, the, the shadow side of this is that sometimes that part can get very strong and a lot of the suppressed anger that they have toward a parent who was not sensitive to their needs, who didn't guess what they were feeling or what they needed, that anger comes up and gets expressed toward that partner. But they have no idea that it it's coming from an old source of pain. Right. In addition to whatever the partner's really doing.

Speaker 1 (24:44):

Right. But it right. So the part, yeah, so the partner really becomes this constant source, which you talked about frustration of why don't they really see me? Why don't they really understand what I need? You know, they should know, and they get there's this constant anger at the partner or dissatisfaction without, as you pointed out, recognizing that that dissatisfaction was something or that loneliness and emptiness, they brought to the relationship that this is part of them rather than at the partner's, you know, failure.

Speaker 2 (25:17):

And yes. And, and the other thing that they bring to the relationship, I just wanna, um, mention here is they bring a passivity about asking for what they need or explaining what they need. Um, because if they ever did get something good from their parent, it was probably when mom or dad was having a good day or, you know, feeling, uh, flush about life and they gave gifts or they, they, uh, read them a story or they did something kind and sweet with them, but it wasn't because the child went to them in a state of great need and the parent met the need. It was that the parent was feeling good. Right. You know? And so there's like this, a causal overflow of giving mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. And so the child learns that I've gotta sit back and wait for somebody to guess what I need, because when I ask for it, it turns people off.

Speaker 1 (26:16):

Right. And to me, you know, the way I look at things that also resonates with the question of kind of this deep sense of shame that they carry that, which prevents them from actually saying, yeah, I, I, I need this from you. I want this from you. That, that, it's very hard for them to feel that they have the ability, the right, or that it's gonna turn out well at all. If they actually name how they're feeling. And that continues to be this block, because they both can't name it or express it and they expect the partner to divine it, to know it.

Speaker 2 (26:58):

Yes. And that becomes, that becomes proof of love.

Speaker 1 (27:02):

Right. Right. You expressed that really well in the book, we said that they believe if they want closeness, they must play a role that always puts the other person first. And then later the biggest relationship downfall is being overly sacrificing and then becoming resentful at how much they do for the other. Yes. So it's this terrible dilemma that they, that they find themselves in all the time.

Speaker 2 (27:28):

Yes. And they've also learned that it's necessary to persevere. That is you have to go for a long time in between rewards. Um, and it's, it's that whole thing about intermittent reinforcement, right? That when you, when things are not going the way you want them to, you have to double down and endure until something shifts or something changes. And that willingness to per persevere with unsatisfying connections is one of the things that, you know, holds people together. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, um, unfortunately in a way that, uh, it's kind of a, a hope that's misplaced because the right the situation is really not being addressed, but that's okay. Because they've learned that if I persevere long enough, mom will be in a good mood or dad will, uh, you know, uh, be happy to see me or, you know, but it's, they're just too accommodating and too hopeful about things turning around on their own.

Speaker 1 (28:36):

You can imagine these kind of, it's like these little Oasis in the desert, but they have to travel for months, bet from, from one water hole to the next, they learned how to do that as a child, you know? Right.

Speaker 2 (28:50):

Right.

Speaker 1 (28:51):

And, and they keep expecting that, oh yeah, just a little longer, they'll be, we'll reach another water hole with my husband or my wife, but they don't. And the last part of that is that they then think that's the failing of the partner, as opposed to their problem of seeing the, the nutrients that are already around them, that, that they're always in a water, in a water hole at a Oasis. And they just haven't figured out how to see it and how to drink from it.

Speaker 2 (29:21):

Yes. Yeah. And then there's, you know, uh, that other issue too, which is, am I worthy? Right. Um, to be given these things that that's a very deep one, because a lot of times emotionally mature parents give their children that impression that they're not worthy. Uh, they're not, um, even basic entitlements to, uh, being treated with respect or having boundaries observed or listening or seeing, or noticing, you know, some of these things, uh, that the kids are not worthy of that kind of parental, uh, emotional attention.

Speaker 1 (30:04):

And I'm wondering do, um, the children, when they grow up, do they tend to marry people or get in relationship with, with people that are kind of reenactments of that childhood? Do they, do they then get involved with other emotionally immature people or how do they then kind of seek out partners in the world?

Speaker 2 (30:27):

Yeah. I, I, I think that certainly happens a lot. I mean, a lot of the people that I would see for, um, basically adjustment, uh, disorders pertaining to a marriage would be that kind of thing, where they got involved with someone, they accepted the premise that this is supposed to be a lot of work. Um, it's up to me to make a good relationship. Uh <laugh> you know, there's nothing, um, that I can do. I just have to sort of, uh, you know, endure this and then, you know, a few years later, or whenever along comes a person who really does make a connection with them. And so the first choice might be a person who is like the family shares. A lot of those dynamics treats them very similarly to that. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then maybe in a later relationship, as they have really kind of become conscious of, of the pain in that first, um, right.

Speaker 2 (31:28):

Uh, dysfunctional relationship, they become more conscious of the pain and more self-aware. They really are more emotionally available for a good relationship. And they can, you know, end up with a, a good person, but I've seen a lot of people. Um, these tended to be people who had some saving graces in their history, you know, like they had a grandmother or they had a teacher, or they had a friend's parent who kind of gave them more attention and nurturing, um, than they would've otherwise had. And those people sometimes really find good mates early, right. Are relatively early. Um, and they, and they have good relationships that continue. And it's really wonderful when you see how, you know, they have good communication, they have good empathy for each other. They have fun with each other. They feel safe with each other. Those relationships with your partner can happen even, you know, if you have emotionally immature parents and I'm sure it has something to do with some of their, um, you know, kind of, uh, saving experiences with, with nurturing people in their past.

Speaker 1 (32:47):

Right, right. It's it's so, that's so interesting cuz we see that with kids in lots of different ways that who have had very difficult, uh, childhoods or childhoods of that are abusive or, um, deprivation that, that one teacher who paid attention to them, mm-hmm <affirmative> that one coach and may even have been a relatively short relationship, has a profound impact on their later life. Mm-hmm <affirmative> to setting a, a model for how people are supposed to interact with each other.

Speaker 2 (33:22):

Yeah. And the other interesting question, uh, about that is, is it that they had those people or is it that they noticed that they had those people?

Speaker 1 (33:32):

Uh, yeah,

Speaker 2 (33:34):

That's a,

Speaker 1 (33:34):

That's a great question.

Speaker 2 (33:36):

Yeah, because maybe, um, some of the other children who didn't emotionally mature in the same way, maybe they had caring people too. Right. But for whatever reason, couldn't take it in or couldn't um, couldn't recognize it. It's we'll never know the answer to that one, but it it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (33:57):

It's a, but it's a great point because sometimes no matter what, someone's not available, not able to kind of notice or see the things that they have that are gonna right in front of them. And, but that's just a, a sign of how profoundly they've been kind of damaged by that kind of early system. Yes. Of not really being, being noticed. Yeah. You know, I was wondering one last thing about this topic. I can imagine also, cuz you know, I'm a, an EFT therapist is we talk about attachment all the time. And sometimes what happens is in a family, a parent is able to attune better to one child than to another just cuz of either circumstances or their person innate personalities or what's happened. And so I can imagine it being very confusing that a child might grow up, let's say there's two or three kids and they feel emotionally lonely in a way at which their siblings don't. That might be very, you can just imagine how painful that would be for them to kind of feel this way within that system.

Speaker 2 (35:09):

Yes, absolutely. Um, what I have noticed a lot though in the histories of my clients is that that other child that seems to get all the parents attention, uh, that is very much seen as the favorite or kind of gets away with murder and, and my client grew up, um, kind of having to, um, defer to the needs of that sibling and so forth. A lot of times that closeness with the emotionally immature parent is not what we mean by closeness mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, it is more of an enmesh right where the parent sort of sees a reflection of their own child self in that particular child. And then they become very merged psychologically with that child and become indulgent. And uh, mm-hmm, <affirmative> support a kind of an entitlement, uh, in that child. But of course the other kid has no idea that's going on. It just looks like, you know, that the parent loves that child war. So it's, you know, it's incredibly painful and, and incredibly confusing.

Speaker 1 (36:26):

I bet, I bet what's their experience then as a parent and having their own children, I can imagine on one hand they would have this great joy at being able to provide their child with what they didn't get. But I can also imagine them feeling frustrated or unhappy or, or, uh, what's the word jealous as they see perhaps their partner give their child the kind of love and attention and reflection that they never received as a child.

Speaker 2 (37:03):

Yeah, no, of course. And that is, um, that's just human nature, you know, <laugh> <laugh> I mean, um, yeah, you don't even have an, have to have an emotionally immature back, uh, parental background to, to have that one Z you, because you know, again, it's that thing about, we all want to be noticed, we all wanna be loved best. We all wanna be special and this is not narcissism. It's just that we wanna be the apple of someone's eye. Yeah. It's the most wonderful feeling. Right. And so that could be hard, uh, when you have, uh, a little person in the family that, you know, has got your spouse wrapped around their little finger or, you know, seems to get a, a special tenderness that maybe you don't feel as often from the spouse. I mean, that's, that's just hard.

Speaker 2 (38:04):

And so, you know, but the difference is that the, the person who's adequate adequately, emotionally mature is able to enjoy through empathy that child's experience of getting that attention. So they can sort of sit back and sort of bask in the fact that, you know, there's this good thing going on between their spouse and the child. So that's possible. And also, you know, when we're emotionally adequate, adequately, emotionally mature, nobody is totally emotionally mature, but if we're adequately, emotionally mature, um, then we can handle emotions like jealousy or envy. Um, we can handle difficult emotions toward people that we love because emotional maturity means that we have become complex enough inside that we can really pretty easily tolerate conflicting emotions. Mm-hmm <affirmative> like, I love my child and I'm jealous of the attention that he gets or she gets. Yeah. Right. Um, so, and you can remember what your goal is, what you're, what you're going after here and with your child, you're trying to raise, you know, a, a happy functional child. And you realize that getting into a jealous, screaming match is not gonna be consistent with that goal <laugh>. And so we deal with our feelings in a, you know, in a more mature way and we accept them. We're just like, you know, can't help, but I'm jealous

Speaker 1 (39:46):

Bothers me. Right. But yeah, it bothers me, but, and it's hard sometimes to really carry both those ideas that I have this great love for this child and maybe I'm jealous of them or, or I also, if the child is acting out, I love this child. I adore this child and they're driving me crazy at the same time.

Speaker 2 (40:03):

Yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (40:04):

I

Speaker 2 (40:05):

Just, that's, that's maturity, that's maturity, maturity, right. That you can hold those two ideas in, in mind and not get rid of, not have to get rid of either one of them.

Speaker 1 (40:14):

Right. And I just wanna jump on one thing you said, which I thought was very important, this concept of adequately, emotionally mature. And I just wanna kind of express that people might think that, oh, I've gotta kind of be totally emotionally mature, but that's just not the case. And no, none of us are, are that we just have to be able to kind of see the other, the other person to really kind of not be so focused on self, but be able to open up to other person. We still have, we still have problems. We still have challenges. There's things we do well, things we do badly, but the benchmark is not so high. We don't have to become perfect. And I think people who are suffering from this think that, oh, I've gotta be, I've gotta change so much, but actually there's a lot of opportunity in kind of modest or incremental growth and change.

Speaker 2 (41:18):

Yes, absolutely. Um, you know, that, uh, uh, concept by, um, Donald wincot about the, the good enough mother. Good enough

Speaker 1 (41:29):

Parent.

Speaker 2 (41:30):

Good

Speaker 1 (41:30):

Enough mother. Totally. That's just what I was thinking about.

Speaker 2 (41:32):

Yeah. Well, I, I heard once that somebody did research on that and they, uh, I guess they coded maternal behavior and then how the kids turned out or, uh, did some sort of research design like that. And what they found was that a good enough mother was good enough. Only 30% of the time. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that was the kind of the cutoff mark. Um, if you were good enough, 30% of the time the kid's gonna be okay. <laugh> right. Which I found enormously reassuring. Reassuring.

Speaker 1 (42:07):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:08):

Yeah. But totally. You know, it's like, if you think of, um, you know, if, if you, if you think of a day and then you think that 30% of your waking hours are spent with someone who sees you, who recognizes you, who thinks about your feelings, uh, who can sit down and be emotionally intimate, listen to you about what's really going on with you. 30% of the hours in your day are spent with a person who can do that. That's a lot, that's

Speaker 1 (42:42):

A

Speaker 2 (42:42):

Lot. We, we don't spend 30% of our waking time with our therapists. Right. <laugh> right. So it's, it's enormously impactful, uh, to be able to even get a little bit of that.

Speaker 1 (42:54):

Right. And I think that's such an important point because, um, especially as parents, you know, if we look back, oh, I did this so badly, I did that so badly. I, I, you know, I, I shattered him or whatever, or her, but those are kind of moments in which we weren't at our best, but as long as we can say, oh, well I was a pretty good dad, at least 30% of the time. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that seems like such a, a doable thing that we can let ourselves off the hook for some of the ways in which we were not less than perfect as parents.

Speaker 2 (43:33):

Yes, yes. Or

Speaker 1 (43:35):

Spouse or as partners.

Speaker 2 (43:36):

Right. Right. Also people who have adequate empathy, you know, basically they're able to put themselves in the shoes of other people. And that also means our children, that if I see a look on my child's face, that signals me, that that child is in distress or that child is feeling unhappy. I'm if I have adequate empathy, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, I'm moved to do something about that. Mm-hmm <affirmative> I moved to approach the child to, um, ask what's wrong, to give comfort, you know, to be, to show curiosity and interest. And if you are moved by empathy and the child and you listened to the child and the child says, when you shouted at me, it made me feel terrible. Um, or it scared me. You have empathy for that. And then you will want to apologize. Mm-hmm <affirmative> <affirmative>. So the other part of it is that even though we, we can't always do the mature thing or, or do the non-harmful thing, we can fix it later, right. By going back in and addressing the feelings that remain from that encounter. And to me, that's like one of the most hopeful things about all relationships is that you don't just get one chance, uh, to be attuned and EMPA and empathetic to your partner or to your child. You can create additional opportunities to go back and do some of that repair.

Speaker 1 (45:12):

Right. That's so true. I just wanted, cuz we're getting to the end of our time, I just wanted to ask one, one kind of last question or topic, which is how do these people find help for recovering, for changing, for growing what's the best, what's the best way for them to kind of improve the situation? Is it professional care or self care? What works best? What, what modalities work best to help them?

Speaker 2 (45:40):

Yeah. I think any kind of modality that seeks to put the person back in touch with their emotional experiences and opening up about emotionally intimate material. I think those are the two things that are the most helpful in recovering from emotionally immature parents. If, if we're, you know, talking about what kind of person do, um, you know, things like, uh, yoga, uh, cognitive, behavioral therapy, um, you know, there are many different modalities and, and things that help people. Those are good, but the problem occurred in that person's emotional attachment. Right. And it occurred in their concept of their self. Okay. So therapies and, and group activities, um, that support getting to know yourself, especially your emotional self are what I think is the most effective, uh, to getting to where the problem occurred. Yeah. I think it's, I think it's enormously important and I really like, um, emotionally focused therapy, which you just mentioned.

Speaker 2 (47:00):

Mm-hmm <affirmative> I really like that because it sort of says, there's a reason why you're having the trouble you're having and it has to do with how your important people in your life responded to your emotional needs, that whole emphasis and the effects of shame on you. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and those kinds of, um, things that qua your spirit, uh, that is enormously. I always recommend to people that they try some kind of EFT oriented therapy and also, um, self-concept therapies loosely mm-hmm, <affirmative> defined like internal family systems. Right. I find to be enormously helpful too, because it gives you a way of working with these different parts of yourself. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that may, you know, some parts may be, uh, very wounded. Other parts may be very mature. There's usually that kind of imbalance within the personality, uh, because they had, on the one hand they had to grow up too fast. And on the other hand, uh, they have these unmet childhood needs that really need to be addressed on an emotional level.

Speaker 1 (48:15):

Yeah. Thank you for that. Well, I have to tell you, this has been, I can't believe, uh, almost an hour has just zipped by this has been so interesting, and this is such important work cuz as therapists, we see the result of the parents' emotional immaturity in our office all day long. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, this is a theme that just comes up and that we're dealing with on a regular basis and it causes such pain and grief, but there's such opportunity for people to change and to have a much, uh, richer and, and healthier and happier life with other people.

Speaker 2 (49:00):

Yes. And the thing I love about, uh, this concept in therapy is that, you know, when you get an explanation for why you feel the way you do mm-hmm <affirmative> and when your symptoms start to make sense and when your unhappiness starts to seem, uh, explainable, it's amazing what that does to your sense of efficacy, right? To your self esteem and to your hope for having, you know, better relationships and a better life with other people. So it's very, very important that we, we get the story straight and, and we understand what's happened to us.

Speaker 1 (49:40):

Absolutely. That's I, I couldn't agree with you more well, Dr. Lindsay Gibson, thank you so much for taking the time to stop in and talk with us today. Uh, that was a fascinating discussion and I really wanna thank you, not only for talking to us, but also for your work, which I think is a, an important contribution. So thanks again. And I hope you have a wonderful day.

Speaker 2 (50:05):

Thank you so much for having me

Speaker 1 (50:13):

Well, that's our episode for today. I hope we found it interesting and useful, but most of all, I'd like to thank you for listening. If you have a minute, please hit the subscribe button and give us a rating. And I hope to see you again soon on another episode of sex, love and couples therapy.